The Cost of Not Having a Culture with Brian Waspi
What happens when a company’s culture is left to develop on its own, without development by management and ownership? Brian Waspi joins us today to explore this incredibly important question.
If you believe that company leadership should has more important things to do than to develop culture, you might end up learning an expensive but valuable lesson. Companies can be brought to their knees when bad culture spreads unchecked.
Brian Waspi, the CEO of Clear Water Outdoors, one of the leading outdoor companies, will be joining us today to share his insights into good culture
versus bad culture. He will detail his personal experiences in a poorly developed culture and what it cost him.
We will also learn the value of doing culture right the first time, and the positive effect that a carefully crafted set of core values can have. In addition, we will see the proactive effects which core values have on the hiring process.
“A goal will push you but a vision pulls you. Money follows value.”
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In this episode, you will learn:
1:35 – Background of Clear Water Outdoor
3:20 – The foundation of company’s culture based on people’s emotion
3:50 – The 2 fronts of culture Clear Water Outdoor is built upon – internal and client side
8:10 – Bad experience on bad culture Brian Waspi has encountered, its impact, and outcome
11:25 – Core values of Clear Water Outdoor - Be awesome.
13:35 – The process that came up with the core values of the company
15:38 – How all employees are “living and breathing” the core values of the company
20:15 – Job hiring interviews based on core values
20:30 – An interesting story based on personal experience showcasing the culture of being awesome
26:30 – How the business started all over again after losing it the first time
28:25 – Brian’s advices around culture
34:32 – How culture influenced growing profit and turnover
Resources:
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Episode Transcript
Announcer: From Core Values to Valued Culture. Here is your host, Will Scott, interviewing another CEO about leading culture in their company.
Will Scott: Welcome everybody to another Culture Czars interview, where we talk to CEOs that care about their corporate culture. As you might know by now we encourage companies to have not just core values but truly have a valued culture. And today we’re interviewing culture czar Brian Waspi of Clearwater Outdoor. Hi Brian, how are you?
Brian Waspi: I’m doing well Will how are you doing this morning?
Will Scott: Good. As with many of my guests we’ve had the pleasure of working together in the Entrepreneur’s Organization, and Brian you’re situated a little bit outside of the great city of Chicago because you’re in the outdoor clothing business. Please go ahead and tell us a little bit about Clearwater Outdoor.
Brian Waspi: Yeah I had the title for a little while of being the furthest commuting EO Chicago member. It turns out most of our clients come from the Chicago market and I live in Wisconsin about 90 minutes north, so everyone comes here to recreate. So Clearwater Outdoor is really 3 businesses under one roof. We operate brick and mortar retail stores, where we sell outdoor goods like kayaks and stand-up paddleboards and primarily clothing. We have 3 locations that do adventures seasonally. We rent kayaks and stand-up paddleboards on the water, and of course we do e-commerce. So culture for me is all 3 of those, but in a nutshell that’s Clearwater Outdoor.
Will Scott: Ok. Very nice, very nice. Well I hope you had a great summer in that business, and I guess your online store will keep you going in the winter?
Brian Waspi: It does; it helps move the seasonality but we have extreme up and down. I mean our sales in the summertime are 400% what they are in February. So outdoor activity is great but people still don’t like the cold as much as they like the summertime.
Will Scott: Ok. Well I suggest you go somewhere like Patagonia then in February.
Brian Waspi: Exactly. Right.
Will Scott: I see the picture behind you there, that’s obviously one of your brands right?
Brian Waspi: It is. That’s Patagonia who gives us a line posters. We call it P.O.P—point of sale. There’s posters and framed stuff all over the store. It’s nice. They have great photographers so they do a lot of work for us. It’s good.
Will: Very nice. Yeah I love the brand and love your store brand. So getting down to the sort of culture side of things, what do you think about when you talk about culture in your company?
Brian: Well you know, I love that quote and I forget who said it but ‘the only sustainable competitive advantage is people’. And so retail has been a tough business. And so I think we’ve survived because of the culture, not just internally what you can get done but the reality of a business like mine is people are looking to have fun. So when they walk in the store, they want to be greeted by a friendly happy person. And so what we say is ‘people buy on emotion, and then they justify with fact.’ So we want to create an emotional response in customers, and that starts with the people they run into here. So we have an interesting mix because we have to project out into the community what we want to be as a business, which comes from culture. But then internally we manage around that as well. So it’s kind of a, we’re always fighting culture on two fronts so to speak—how we manage ourselves internally as a business, and then how we look in the public eye and how we interact with our customers.
Will: So it sounds like it’s super important to you and your business, and I heard you mention fun there, and giving that experience to clients when they walk in. Why is that so important to you? Have you experienced bad culture before, and that makes you partly more passionate about having a great culture today?
Brian: Yeah, so you’re also asking the business owner, right? So I answer that with two hats. And I’ll start first with the personal one—
Will: Sounds like an experience share.
Brian: It is an experience share. I want to get up in the morning and like going to work. And so it’s fun to me to be surrounded by a bunch of outdoor enthusiasts gearhead extroverts, right? I like to laugh at (inaudible).
Will: Like me.
Brian: I think one of my challenges is keeping it clean because we joke so much. So I like that personally. So on the professional side of it, we simply wouldn’t survive without our culture the way that it is. Retail is challenging. And you know, we hit some major setbacks in the business and it was a little bit of a turnaround there for a couple of years. And I think what kept us going through those hard times was our culture. Because it puts a lot of strain on the team when you have to downsize or go without raises for a little while. All you have left at the end of that is a culture that keeps people excited to come to work. So you’ve heard the expression ‘CEO is Chief Emotional Officer’? So I’m always trying to control that and I think I’m pretty jovial by nature anyway. So you throw me in a room with a bunch of gearheads and we like to talk about the outdoors and have fun. It permeates everything that we do. We may speak about this but we integrated the EOS(?) system years ago.
Will: Yep, I know it well, yep.
Brian: And that helped make it formal. Because it’s one thing for me to say ‘hey, I want to like going to work, I’m not going to hire angry jerks’. I mean that’s a real easy one.
Will: No angry jerks! Core value number one.
Brian: That is not a core value. Being awesome is a core value. But the reality of what happened is the company grew. I the summertime I swell to 50+ employees. (inaudible) locations, right? And all of them have different tasks. And I manage the managers. But there are people who work for me all summer who I maybe get to meet one time. But I can’t be part of the hiring process that ultimately lends itself to that culture. So I had to design that system, so that a manager who’s great, and fits all the company core values knows how to screen for that when they do hiring. So we spent a lot of time building that out, developing interview questions, and we make sure there’s more than one person in the interview, right?
Will: Yep.
Brian: And so now today it’s one of the things we hear from our reps in the industry, our customers, everybody is they’re always excited to come in here. And so people don’t come in because they want to shop in the store all the time. Sometimes they’re looking for something. But they remember how they felt. Right?
Will: Yep. Absolutely.
Brian: The store is cool, the people that they talk to, they get into ‘what did you do for activities today, where did you eat’, I mean it’s not all about just selling outdoor products. Nowhere in our mission statement does it say to sell stuff. We create an atmosphere of fun and to the extent we can hire around that, then it’s easy after that.
Will: Well you’re clearly a CEO that’s very comfortable talking about emotions and feelings, and of course ultimately that’s what we’re looking for: a culture that gives you a feeling of belonging, a feeling that you like being at work. Were you going to share anything about the bad culture that you experienced?
Brian: Sure. Well I have to be a little careful here because part of bad culture leads to infighting, and sometimes infighting leads to a breakup of business partnerships with non-disparagement clauses…
Will: Yep! (laughter)
Brian: So I have to be a little careful about what I say.
Will: Yeah, just tell us about the culture. What did it feel like?
Brian: I mean it was terrible. I think everybody’s experienced one way or another when you start feeling a burning anxiety when it’s time to go to work. You’re sort of ‘armoring up’ for what’s going to happen in the office. That’s a terrible environment. And when you’re one of the owners you can’t leave that environment very easily. Unfortunately your good people can. So turnover was high. You’re always trying to manage people’s expectations and sometimes they just don’t align with the culture that’s coming down from ownership or management in that case. And so it got rough. Same thing, we were in multiple states traveling, and culture wasn’t defined from the top down in that business. In fact it was sort of destructive.
Will: It was sort of just developed by default and it wasn’t good. Yeah.
Brian: And what happened is you’d have a different culture in California with that team than you did in Chicago. What ultimately happened is it became very negative. Everywhere. There was some people who didn’t like each other, management that didn’t get along with their employees, and ultimately in that business it trickled into our customers. Somebody would show up to do a job that was more of a service business… somebody would show up and if they were in a bad mood because they’re not listened to or they’re just disgruntled about the company that translates right into the service they’re providing for the customer. So sales became a grind. Finding people to fulfill became a grind. And ultimately the business wasn’t as successful as it could have been, it shrank dramatically as a result of that culture and I ended up exiting eventually.
Will: Ok. So the contrasts were in a tough culture everything is hard. But if the culture’s great and you fell aligned everything just goes a lot more easily.
Brian: Yeah I’d even take that a step further, Will. ‘Hard’ I think is manageable. Jobs get hard, projects get hard, they get difficult, you have to do things you don’t like. I think when the culture goes to hell it’s not just hard, it’s emotionally distressing. Everywhere. I felt it, the team felt it, and people will quit. And what it turned into is sort of a top-down pyramid command structure. And that doesn’t work, not long term. You get to where you’re motivating people with the fear of losing their job, or strictly financial, and you know as well as anybody that just doesn’t work. You can hold people short term doing that, but then it becomes the grind.
Will: Very well said Brian, very well said. Let’s look a bit at your core values then. You mentioned one, ‘be awesome’.
Brian: Yeah it’s funny, they’re on the wall here right next to me.
Will: I love it when in these interviews it looks as if they’re looking right at the wall.
Brian: I’m gonna grab it. We keep them pinned everywhere.
Will: Show them to us. Give us a flash.
Brian: (Shows core values printout)
Will: Cool. Can we put those on the website next to this interview?
Brian: You certainly can. The one that gets the most attention I’ll start with. One of our core values is ‘be awesome’. And I can read in detail what these mean to us if you’d like.
Will: Yeah that’s what I call the descriptive behavior. So tell us what you put underneath ‘be awesome’ to help people understand what it means at Clearwater Outdoor.
Brian: Sure. So be awesome means happy. Positive attitude. Professional. Well groomed. Fashionable. Confident. Fun. Get along with your coworkers. Good communication skills. Just picture an awesome person, right?
Will: Yeah.
Brian: In fact the word ‘awesome’ permeates everything we do. It shows up in our marketing, so ‘be awesome’ is a good one. We have ‘passion for the industry’. Value nature and the outdoors. Experience in the outdoors. Extensive product knowledge. Passionate about the products, passionate about people. ‘Integrity’. Tell the truth. Demonstrate good judgment. Embrace strong moral principles. Be trustworthy and reliable. We’re a retail business so we have ‘customer-centric’ on here. Commitment to excellence. Service to the customer. Use ‘we’ instead of ‘I’. Respond timely. Follow through. Take ownership and personal responsibility. Communicate in a timely manner. And the last one we’ve got is ‘take action’. Solve problems. Act intelligently. Work hard. Be organized. Adaptable, willing to help. Driven. Goal oriented. Action oriented. Handle your coworker requests.
Will: And Brian what process did you use to come up with those core values? And by the way, they sound awesome.
Brian: Thanks, they are awesome! I think we were an early adopter of the EOS traction process. I feel like we started that in 2012, 2013.
Will: That would make you an early adopter, yeah.
Brian: And at the time there weren’t many people to help with that. If I could go back in time, and I’m going to answer your questions about how we got those, I wish we could have gotten some help with it because we spent so much time and energy trying to go through it blindly, and it took us a little over a year to get it right. So to actually answer your question how we came up with our core values it was going through the exercises in the book as best we could on our own. So one of the questions in there is if you could single out a couple of people in your organization who would help carry you to market dominance if you could clone them, right, start making a whole list of what they represent. And so we did that for probably five people in the organization, including the founders, and then started paring them down until we got to a common denominator and said ‘these are the five things that if we can live and breath THIS, the business will do well’. The rest are details. You can train that, you know every season the way this store looks is nothing like it did in 2013. The business evolves, it changes, the product mix changes, what customers want change, everything’s malleable right? But these core values we continue to come back to those, and it’s carried us straight so far.
Will: And you continue to talk about living and breathing them, you scale up to as many as 50 employees in the summer and many of them are presumably part time or maybe just seasonal. Do you think your employees are all aware of these core values? What do you do to make sure that everyone is living and breathing them?
Brian: Good question. This is where my job comes in, right? I know what the managers are supposed to do. I have to go and check. Ultimately there’s a packet in our business on how to hire someone. There’s a ‘how to fire someone’ packet as well. It doesn’t get as much use, thankfully. But the how to hire someone packet has the core values in it. It’s in our employee handbook. Every hire signs off on that that they got it and they understand. And then we do reviews of new people. We’re filling out a review at the first 90 days. And every single review somebody gets, right at the top, they’re being rated against the core values. The management team also came up with a series of energy questions built around those core values. So if you wanted to determine—there are five core values on here. That’s really all the interview is about. Because we use a process for hiring, and so by the time somebody gets here, even entry level sales floor folks, we know their history. We know their job history and their ability to technically and intellectually do the job more or less.
Will: So you focus on culture more at that point and fix…
Brian: On culture. Yep. And I could speak in detail about why that’s also good, because usually we’ve weeded people out before we’ve even met them in person. Which stops people from claiming we’ve either discriminated or just didn’t like them. It’s not going to say ‘we didn’t hire you because you’re mean’. But anyway when it gets to the interview we go through a series of questions, and I think there are about five to choose from each of the core values we came up with. So the manager has those in their possession and so does the second person in the interview. And so fast forward five years: everybody knows what those are and that we hire around them. And if somebody gets in a review, and this has happened, and they’re just a bad hire… I mean everybody makes them. You can’t be a perfect person all the time. It’s pretty collaborative with the manager that hired them. And it actually becomes a little funny. I mean it’s not, because you had a bad hire, but the reality is look, ‘be awesome’ goes in the other direction too. I can’t come in and be a jerk like ‘Oh man, you guys really messed that up, that was a terrible hire’. It’s more of a collaborative discussion about how did it go in that interview. Let’s pull out their paperwork and see how you rated them, and continue to get sharper. So it’s a long way to the answer that you asked how are we making sure that those are adhered to? It starts with hiring and it carries through with reviews.
Will: Normally this is the time I ask how important are core values at your company, where do they rank among all your strategic priorities? I think you’ve already said both: you basically put it first and everything else will follow.
Brian: Yeah. I would say without exception it was number one until we got to 2016 when the business had a brush with bankruptcy. That was the downsizing nationally of retail, you remember a lot of bankruptcies were happening with some of the large retail chains, and our credit started evaporating with a lot of our creditors through no fault of our own. So we had to navigate all of that and keep the business going, so my primary focus became our cash flow at that point. And culture, although still important, I was glad we had so much momentum because it carried us through that year. It’s hard when we need to downsize and people lose jobs, sometimes you lose folks through attrition, or they worry about their jobs, and the nice part is everybody ‘drinks the kool aid’ around here. It’s true. They’re outdoor junkies and there’s a mission to the business and they’re a part of it. And so that culture saved us that year. Although it took a backseat to the finances because it had to. We were in life support. We never went away. But any other time in history everything is built around core values because the rest changes and is unreliable.
Will: So then over time have you developed any traditions or do you give any awards out or do you kind of use the words in your meetings?
Brian: Yeah we do. I was going to show you outside my office there’s a big yellow button and it’s a smiley face, and you push it and it goes ‘dudududing, you are awesome!’ So people, when they come in with something I’ll say ‘hit the button on your way out’ right? And you can hear it through the office.
Will: Very cool.
Brian: Yeah so it’s everywhere. It’s really the ‘be awesome’. If I had to whittle us down to one core value it’s that one. It’s a little bit subjective but the reality is that either your peers will tell you you’re awesome or not. It seems like people get voted off the island so to speak by their peers sometimes? But I’ll tell you Will, we rarely rarely have a bad hire around the core values. Sometimes we get a bad hire around technical ability or that sort of thing, but core values now it’s at the heart of so much of what we do that I don’t worry about it so much anymore. It’s just there, it permeates everything.
Will: That’s great. And you got good at the hiring process then, it sounds like, through your having interview questions that everybody understands, you have more than one person doing the interview, and then I guess also people know what a good answer looks like and they’re sort of benchmarking the candidates’ answers against what you know to be looking for.
Brian: Right. And you know it depends on the position we’re hiring for. The biggest turnover in my business are the entry level positions. We call them boat chuckers affectionately. They’re knee-deep in water, they’re launching people in kayaks, they’re home from college break…
Will: That sounds like fun.
Brian: Oh it’s a great summer job, they come back year after year. But the reality is those are transitional types of jobs. They’re typically in school for something else. Some of them will come back after college and work for us but it’s the same in the summer. We double the number of employees on the sales force so that’s where we’re always hiring and turning. The managers stay the same. We have very low turnover on the manager side.
Will: That’s perfect. So thinking to that then—any moments that you can think of, any stories that exemplify your core values?
Brian: Yeah. So we start every meeting off with good news. And those are always fun. And the one that pops out in my mind, it’s so great. We had a customer write us a letter and send in a photograph. And the photograph, I think he and his wife were in Sylvania wilderness sign going for a hike. And to spare you all the details, he just told the story of how he remembered being a very outdoorsy kid, and he was excited to find this outdoor store but he came in and his wife didn’t want anything to do with it. And so she came looking for him because he was in here too long. And he noticed her joking with the staff, starting to look at clothing and basically having fun. And so he sent in this picture saying ‘your store was able to do in 15 minutes what I had been unable to do in 27 years of marriage’. And that’s how you get people outside and active. It happened because they ran into someone who was awesome, who had a passion for the industry, they were customer-centric. It shows in the metrics we use for the business and it shows in customer reviews like that. It was awesome.
Will: I like to encourage CEOs not just to think about the fact that they’re leading a company, but that they’re leading a culture. And I think that shows how that can be. The culture doesn’t stop at the four walls, it goes beyond that, and if you can get your customers living it and coming back to you because they’re feeling a fit with your culture too you just get that community and the culture extends itself.
Brian: Yeah and that’s harder than ever in retail. The rise of Amazon, brands are selling direct to consumer online. The revenue in the stores continues to climb. Online is more and more competitive and it’s really hard to bring those core values to the web site. We have some ways to do it but the reality is the stores, people want a sense of belonging I think more than anything. And to the extent that they find that here they are customers for life.
Will: That’s really interesting. I wasn’t aware of that, I didn’t expect you to say that. I would have thought online would be killing it but here you are saying retail for you is actually less competitive and is a needed experience that your customers are looking for.
Brian: Yeah and the towns that I’m in right? I mean the Clearwater Outdoor stores are in the boutique walking district of a downtown. So we get a lot of foot traffic because of that. But the reality is people are out looking for things to do. I think beause of online, not doing too much of the industry because I know that’s where it’s going, but I think online is changing how easy it is for people to get things. Their basic needs and services are met so quickly, they have a lot of time. And I’m in tourist communities where people are out looking for things to do. So they’re walking around on Main Street and they find this awesome store, they go in and have this incredible experience, and even if they don’t buy something they remember how they felt when they were in there. And so the next time they’re driving by on the street they remember, ‘oh that store is awesome’. They’re in a car full of people saying ‘that’s an awesome place’. So we keep trying to always promote that.
Will: And how long have you had your business now Brian?
Brian: Oh boy. Over a decade. The business started in 2005. And it was just a small owner-operated business. And then at the end of 2012, right coming into 2013 we completed a Series A round and raised some money to expand. And we did so aggressively; we opened 3 more stores, we launched e-commerce, more rental locations, and we grew really quickly. And I’ll be honest, it got hard for us to maintain the basics. Not just the core values, but…
Will: The process…
Brian: That’s what I was getting to next. We have binders in every location where we’ve made a system out of everything that we can. We call them SOPs, Standard Operating Procedures. And so when we started expanding rapidly the focus came off of hiring around the core values and system process stuff, and it hurt us. A great big store that opened, when I finally rolled up my sleeves and got in there, it was almost too late because we didn’t do it right as we expanded. I certainly learned a tough lesson because we had to downsize the business and find our footing again. And it certainly came back to those core values.
Will: Well congratulations Brian, because like a lot of (inaudible) you’ve ridden the ups and downs, cash flow issues, fast growth, having to have layoffs, all of these things. And it sounds like culture was important throughout that. Is there one piece of advice you’d share with our listeners around culture?
Brian: Boy. What pops into my head is ‘get it right the first time or you’ll do it again’. You’ll do it again in that business or, in my experience, you’ll lose that business and then get it right in the next business. Time is money. And regrettably it took us too long in the beginning to solidify some of this. That’s what I’d say: spend the time and energy to get it right.
Will: Yeah, and it can take a little while too, can’t it? You can’t really have a startup immediately announcing to the world their core values because you gotta kind of get some knocks and figure out a little bit and work together to really see what is the culture, and then start to memorialize it with words, live with it, and then finally to finalize it. I think it’s hard to magic them all up on Day 1.
Brian: I agree with that, but I do have one challenge for you on that. Part of EO is the form process. So I’m actually presenting next month on a new initiative. And what’s interesting in that room is how many of those CEOS are running the EOS intraction process, and all of them right out of the gate changed the presentation to be more about solidifying what you stand for, the brand, before you even start growing the business. And so I really like the expression ‘nail it before you scale it’. And so asking those questions—who are you as a business, why do you exist—
Will: But they’re doing that when they’ve been in business a little while, right? They’re not doing this the day they started their business.
Brian: That’s the difference I was trying to point out. I think people who are brand new to entrepreneurship and building businesses just start. And I encourage that. Fail fast! Get in there, take the first step, make the leap and figure it out as you go. Jump off the cliff, build your parachute on the way down. I do that. I think you have to have that crazy mentality to be an entrepreneur in the first place. So I think early and first-time entrepreneurs, in my experience you may certainly disagree, but what I’ve come across are some early stage businesses and early stage entrepreneurs, that’s my point, kind of start and then will solidify the core values later. Having been through now my fourth business venture, I don’t think I will ever again start a business without spending a healthy amount of time starting to understand what the business stands for as a brand and backing that down into the core values. Because I spent so much time cleaning up mistakes. Suddenly you have a manager who’s been with you for four years and now you go through and set the core values and look at them in a meeting thinking ‘how the hell is this person here?’ And it’s easy when you can compare them against core values but in my experience if you don’t do it as soon as you can the cleanup is a little harder than the implementation.
Will: Yeah. Very cool. I often cite the example of the United States constitution: what would it be like trying to function in this country without… how would we coexist? We need to have like a compass to say how we do this. I think it’s amazing how some people will try to run a company without trying to do the same thing, without trying to say what do we stand for.
Brian: I agree. I think a lot of times I’m guilty of this too. It seems like businesses fall into two camps. You get those founders who are just incredibly passionate about something and feel like they have a calling. Like I must go and build the world’s greatest electric car. They have this compelling drive to go after that. And then you have other entrepreneurs, and I’ll be honest I was in this camp, where early life was a bit of a struggle financially. Some of the jobs I had paying my way through college made me sit back and go ‘I want more out of life and myself’. And so I think from my experience on the first version is it becomes about money. You have one camp that’s really driven by purpose and a life purpose, and I think that’s the healthiest for the record, and then you have guys like me who came through the trenches and I wanted to make money. And to the extent that I made my decisions around that it never worked. It never worked and was misguided. And that desire for financial independence is enough to push you. You’ve heard that expression ‘a goal will push you but a vision pulls you’. And this is the first business where I think I got the order of operation right. Money follows value. And we create value here for our customers, our employees, it’s not focused on money. And it seems counter to entrepreneurship and owning a business and it’s very profit-driven but it’s a really important distinction: focusing on profits never got me anywhere near where I wanted to go.
Will: Yeah I hear you and that’s very eloquently put. And speaking of money, can you also point to culture and say culture has helped you make money, helped grown your revenues, helped you be more profitable?
Brian: Yeah I’ll take that a step further: I have no question this business would be bankrupt financially if we didn’t have the culture that we do. So it’s easy to brush over a lot of this if your top line is great. Sales solve all. Well for a while it does, but as you grow and scale, the business becomes at the mercy of whatever the manager thinks should be for their department, and maybe that’ll work and maybe it won’t but on a grander scheme I don’t think we would have pulled this business back from the brink without the culture that we have. Going forward from that, culture leads to sales here. Like I spoke about earlier it leads to repeat customers. It leads to staff who hang out together on the weekends when they’re not working. Like all of that translates into sales, because people come in and they buy and have a good time.
Will: Well that’s great Brian, you’ve very eloquently brought the interview to a very nice conclusion. So thank you very much for doing that and thanks for being a little bit vulnerable in sharing some of your tougher moments as an entrepreneur, everybody appreciates when you do that so thank you. And thanks for your time and listen, congratulations with your success too. I look forward to watching Clearwater Outdoor grow and thrive. And please do send me a copy of your core values so I can stick that on the website.
Brian: I will do that. Parting thought is just keep having fun.
Will: Keep having fun, absolutely. That’s a big part of it. Well thanks a lot Brian, cheers.
Brian: Ok take care. Bye.
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